Ep 87 - What Separates Growing Orthodontic Practices From the Rest With Jill Allen

Why do some orthodontic practices continue to grow while others plateau?

In this episode of The Golden Age of Orthodontics, Dr. Leon Klempner and Amy Epstein welcome back orthodontic consultant Jill Allen, founder of Jill Allen & Associates, for a practical conversation about what separates growing practices from those struggling to gain momentum.

Jill breaks down the four key sources of practice growth: dental referrals, community relationships, online visibility, and internal patient referrals, and explains how the balance between them changes as a practice matures. The discussion also explores why data, office culture, patient experience, and consistent communication all play a role in generating more starts.

They also dig into one of the most common mistakes practices make: investing more money in marketing before fixing the systems responsible for converting inquiries into consultations and consultations into starts. From unanswered leads to weak follow-up and overlooked observation patients, small breakdowns inside the practice can quietly limit growth even when marketing is working.

Whether you are building a startup, managing an established orthodontic practice, or trying to break through a plateau, this episode offers a clear framework for identifying where growth is coming from and where opportunities may be slipping away.

Key takeaways:

• The four primary sources of orthodontic practice growth and how their importance changes as a practice matures

• Why data, patient experience, and office culture are critical to generating referrals and converting more starts

• How stronger relationships with referring dentists and patients can create more sustainable growth

• Why practices should fix conversion and follow-up “leaks” before increasing their marketing spend

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

What follows is an AI-generated transcript. The transcript may contain errors and is not a substitute for watching the video.

Golden Age of Orthodontics Episode 87 - Jill Allen V2

Dr. Leon Klempner: (00:00:00) So this is what we know. On average, our orthodontic industry (00:00:05) has remained relatively flat. Yet some orthodontic practices (00:00:10) continue to grow year after year, while others plateau or even decline. (00:00:15) In this episode, we've invited orthodontic consultant Jill Allen to (00:00:20) join us to explore what separates the high-growth practices from the rest.(00:00:25) 

You don't want to miss this one, so stay with me.(00:00:30) 

Amy Epstein: Welcome to the golden age of 

Dr. Leon Klempner: orthodontics(00:00:35) (00:00:40) (00:00:45) 

One thing we know is that the future of (00:00:50) orthodontics is digital. For me, the KL Owen custom solution checks (00:00:55) off all of the boxes, takes the guesswork out of treatment planning, (00:01:00) reduces treatment time and appointments, and lets the team best support the orthodontist. If you (00:01:05) haven't already, I suggest you check them out.

You can get more information as well as a (00:01:10) special offer on our website. Just go to pplpractice.com (00:01:15) and click our partner tab. Welcome to the golden age of orthodontics. If (00:01:20) you don't already know me, you should know me. This is our sixth or (00:01:25) seventh year. We've got over two million downloads and, or (00:01:30) views, but if you're new to our podcast, welcome.

We're glad that (00:01:35) you're here, and particularly for this one, because it applies to everyone. My name (00:01:40) is Leon Klempner. I am a retired board-certified orthodontist. I'm (00:01:45) the director and craniofacial orthodontist at Mount Sinai Hospital here in New York. (00:01:50) I have residents that I teach at Harvard and Montefiore.

I'm the president of New York (00:01:55) State Society of Orthodontists and the CEO of People in Practice. (00:02:00) Recently celebrated my 52nd, that's right, 5-2 anniversary (00:02:05) with my childhood sweetheart, Laurie. I'm blessed to be the father of (00:02:10) three daughters, grandpa to four grandkids. I practiced for about 40 (00:02:15) years or so before co-founding People in Practice about 15 years ago with (00:02:20) my partner, my daughter, and my podcast co-host, (00:02:25) Amy Epstein.

Welcome, Amy. 

Amy Epstein: Thank you so much. Happy anniversary, (00:02:30) by the way. 

Dr. Leon Klempner: Thank you. Thank you. 

Amy Epstein: Uh, I am Amy Epstein. I am (00:02:35) mother of two of those grandkids, um, and I have an (00:02:40) MBA in marketing and 20 years of public relations experience and (00:02:45) when we started People in Practice together, (00:02:50) um, 15 years ago or so, right, uh, it was because we (00:02:55) both believe that the thing that marketing does, we knew we were gonna create a m- a (00:03:00) marketing firm- But we both agreed, him, you know, you being (00:03:05) an orthodontist, having a practice, having a culture, having people, um, (00:03:10) being in the community, knew that it's not just marketing alone, (00:03:15) it's amplifying a practice from within that really (00:03:20) supports that kind of growth.

And, you know, over the years as you meet people in the orthodontic industry, at (00:03:25) least for me, some of my favorite conversations have been with others that share the same (00:03:30) philosophy. And that's why I am very happy to welcome Jill Allen back to The (00:03:35) Golden Age today. If you don't know Jill, she is the owner and founder of (00:03:40) Jill Allen and Associates, which helps orthodontists across the country grow into (00:03:45) stronger, more sustainable practices.

Her firm has become one of the most (00:03:50) trusted names in orthodontic consulting. She's a strategic partner to startups, (00:03:55) mid-career practices across the board. She writes regularly for (00:04:00) industry publications. She also hosts a podcast. So this is gonna be a good one 'cause everyone (00:04:05) here has podcasting experience.

It's called Hey Docs, and you can find it on (00:04:10) her website, which is practiceresults.com or wherever you get your podcasts. 

Jill Allen: Mm-hmm. (00:04:15) 

Amy Epstein: Jill, welcome back to the show. Thank you so much for being here. 

Jill Allen: Yes. Amy and Leon, (00:04:20) thank you both for having me. What, you know, it's always so much fun, number one, to be on fellow (00:04:25) podcasters', um- Sure

you know, uh, shows, but also just, you know, to, (00:04:30) just to be a guest of yours is, is a real honor of, of mine. So th- thank you for having me. 

Amy Epstein: (00:04:35) That is very kind. Um, well, we're happy to have you. And, um, you know, (00:04:40) we, obviously, we really respect your work. Um, and we have some shared clients and, and they (00:04:45) respect your work and really appreciate what you do for them.

You provide, and this (00:04:50) is in the words of some of our, our shared clients, a, a really zoomed out holistic (00:04:55) view of the path towards building a successful practice. Mm-hmm. We work with a lot of (00:05:00) shared startups. Um, and I know that that perspective will be really valuable to the (00:05:05) listeners that are- Mm-hmm ... are listening in today.

So, um, okay. So let's get into it. (00:05:10) Our job typically, like I said earlier, uh, you know, in marketing (00:05:15) is we feel to get patients into the door. Mm-hmm. Um, but even as a marketer, I am (00:05:20) self-aware enough to know that that's only part of the equation- ... for sustainable growth for an (00:05:25) orthodontic practice. So from, from what you see, what else (00:05:30) separates practices that consistently grow from those that seem to (00:05:35) plateau?

Jill Allen: Yeah. And you know, this is such an interesting question because, you know, it seems like there (00:05:40) would just be some really easy answers to that question. You know, oh, you just, you know, do this or do (00:05:45) that. But I think what really separates, and, you know, when I work with practices, because I (00:05:50) not only work with startups, but I work with established and, you know, even doctors who are getting (00:05:55) ready to, you know, kind of look at retiring.

Every practice, depending (00:06:00) upon where they're at in their life cycle, you know, may have different focuses when it comes to (00:06:05) the marketing component and what makes them stand out versus what makes them flat. (00:06:10) And I think just on a very simple answer, you know, I really believe that the (00:06:15) doctors and team members who really understand the data on (00:06:20) where their patients are coming from and how they're converting patients within (00:06:25) different verticals of where patients are coming from really makes a big difference (00:06:30) on practices that, you know, really go somewhere or somebody that stays flat.

(00:06:35) But also, I think there's the side where I say there's, there's data, (00:06:40) and then there's also understanding the importance of what office culture, (00:06:45) um, does to conversion in patients coming in, (00:06:50) in, you know, in, in marketing. And I think that that's, you know, when we think about the (00:06:55) office culture component of it, a lot of times a lot of people are like, "Ah, that's real feel."

You know, that, that's too (00:07:00) touchy-feely- Yeah ... you know, to think about that. But it really does make a big difference in, you (00:07:05) know, if we understand the data and then we other-- you know, understand that patient (00:07:10) experience and culture of that. If we've got the culture dialed in (00:07:15) and the data dialed in, then we really see these offices (00:07:20) that just keep moving up and keep moving up where, you know, we think on average, you know, most (00:07:25) established practices are growing, what I think by Benson and Couple's numbers, you know, at (00:07:30) 3% on a, you know, on a good year.

Um, you know, where we're, you know, we can see (00:07:35) practices growing still at that 20, 30% when I believe when they've got it all dialed in just (00:07:40) right. 

Amy Epstein: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Leon Klempner: You know, you know, Jill, what's interesting to me is that- (00:07:45) Uh, in, you know, and I'm talking about the more established practices now. Mm-hmm. (00:07:50) They're not used to paying attention to these things because- No

things rolled along (00:07:55) and they were busy. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And as long as they were busy, like, "What do I need digital marketing? What do I (00:08:00) need to worry about my staff? What do I need to concern myself about?" Analyze all the (00:08:05) data points. Yeah. Concern myself about a new patient, you know, or the experience that (00:08:10) our patients are having.

You know, things are going well, right? Why rock the boat? But (00:08:15) now, all of a sudden, it's like a wake-up call because- Mm ... now the numbers aren't (00:08:20) there. So now they, you know, they're scurrying and they're, they're, they're, they're lost. (00:08:25) So, um, it, it's very valuable the things that you're doing. And, and (00:08:30) if, you know, now they're coming to the table.

They're coming to us, they're coming to you. Mm-hmm. They're not (00:08:35) coming 'cause they wanna come. They're coming, most of them, kicking and screaming, 

Jill Allen: you know? 

Dr. Leon Klempner: Yeah. We, we've (00:08:40) had, we have clients that tell us, "I, you know, I hate the fact that I, I need to use you guys." (00:08:45) You know? Mm. But- Well, 

Jill Allen: and I- ... what do I have 

Dr. Leon Klempner: to do?

Jill Allen: Yeah. And, and 

Amy Epstein: Leon- Eventually we win (00:08:50) them over. Eventually we win them over. 

Jill Allen: Right. Right. And Leon, I w- I would agree with you. You know, having been in our (00:08:55) industry for over 30 years and, you know, having my business for 20, I mean, I can, (00:09:00) I can look back and, you know, remember when the big thing was, you know, having a good, a good ad (00:09:05) on, uh, the Yellow Pages.

You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And, and if you were a big spender, you were making sure that you were on the (00:09:10) dental and the ortho. Mm-hmm. So you got, you know, a, a little of both there. So, uh, you know, I do (00:09:15) believe for a lot of established practices, to your point, that probably is (00:09:20) the biggest Achilles heel, I think, that a lot of practices have is that- (00:09:25) Marketing and, and marketing as a whole is such a generic word (00:09:30) anyways, but it just seems like it's kind of the afterthought.

Well, I've got clinical (00:09:35) efficiencies I gotta deal with. I'm trying to, you know, deal with this and, you know, I've got, you know, digital workflows and (00:09:40) I've got, you know, all these other things, teams and, you know, all, all these things. And (00:09:45) that, that marketing thing is, you know, to your point, I haven't had to deal with it, (00:09:50) so, you know, I'm, I'm not really going to.

And, you know, to your point, what I see pretty (00:09:55) consistently is, you know, what, what we know, um, you know, practices do is what we (00:10:00) produce in one year, we collect over two. Mm-hmm. You know, when we're kind of looking at that. And so a lot of (00:10:05) times when doctors are reaching out saying, "Hey, I think I need help," they've kind of hit that (00:10:10) wall.

It's usually because they've got a two-year deficit in collections, (00:10:15) and n- now they got a lot to make up, uh, for where, you know, they, they (00:10:20) didn't feel that year one when they were starting to go down. And if they weren't, going back to my original point, if they (00:10:25) weren't paying attention to the data and realizing- Mm-hmm

that referrals were (00:10:30) slowing down in, you know, I call them the four pillars, you know, in, in these four different areas, (00:10:35) um, it, it, it takes about two years to see that in your bank account and go, "Oh my (00:10:40) gosh, you know, we've, we've got major, we've got major problems." And now you're really digging back (00:10:45) out again.

Yeah. 

Dr. Leon Klempner: So, you know, uh, you mentioned the four pillars. (00:10:50) Mm-hmm. So, you know, and, and I think of them as different buckets, but they're all (00:10:55) interrelated. Um, m- m- can you just for our audience that may (00:11:00) not have- Sure ... that know- may not know you or, or dealt with you or (00:11:05) have listened to you speak, uh, could you kind of just break it down, (00:11:10) uh, into the simple terms in terms of what, what are the areas they need to (00:11:15) pay attention to?

That's why they're coming here. That, that's why they're listening here today, 'cause they wanna hear from (00:11:20) you. Sure. What do I need to do? 'Cause I wanna be in that group that's growing, not that group that's (00:11:25) plateauing. 

Jill Allen: Yeah, absolutely. So I, I like to break it down into four, four (00:11:30) pillars or four buckets, as, you know, as, as, as you call it.

And, you know, the (00:11:35) first one is dental referrals. And, you know, I believe, I don't care if you're a startup (00:11:40) practce- practice or an established practice, you need to have referrals coming in from (00:11:45) each one of these pillars or each one of these buckets. Now, they will, as, as your (00:11:50) practice is in different stages, they may vary in, you know, how much is coming in from (00:11:55) each bucket.

But we really want, I think of it like a table. You know, you can, you can (00:12:00) have four legs. You can have three legs. You can't have a real good table on two legs or one leg. You know what I (00:12:05) mean? Without- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so when I, when I think about, um, our (00:12:10) marketing pillars, I, I like to explain them as dental referrals as our first one.

So that's pretty (00:12:15) much our dental community, our peers out there that is (00:12:20) doctors referring to doctors. That could be from our dentist. It could be g- from our pediatric (00:12:25) dentist. It could be from, you know, ENTs. It could be from oral surgeons. It's just (00:12:30) kinda that dental peer group that say, "Hey, this (00:12:35) doctor is worth going to see."

Even if I'm handing out a couple different cards, you want to (00:12:40) be one of the three cards that, that they're handing out- Mm-hmm ... or that their front desk is handing out. (00:12:45) The second area is community, and I really believe in most (00:12:50) practices. Now, if we're, if I got a doc that's listening in a very rural area, this, this number that I'm gonna (00:12:55) say is gonna vary a little bit.

But the second one is community, and when we think (00:13:00) about our community around our practice, I usually like to think (00:13:05) within maximum five-mile radius, but most of our patients are gonna come within a (00:13:10) three-mile radius of your practice. Could be a little smaller if we're in a very dense-- (00:13:15) You know, if we're in the heart of New York City, um, it's gonna be very different than Ames, (00:13:20) Iowa, right?

Um, but for the most part, when we think about our community, (00:13:25) it's, you know, our residents and our, you know, businesses and our schools, (00:13:30) everybody that's, you know, around our practice within a three to five-mile range. Um, how, you know, how do (00:13:35) we get out into the rec centers and the sports teams and the schools?

That's kind of our community. (00:13:40) Then when we think about, um, the next one I like to talk about (00:13:45) is internet or, um, online. And when we think about (00:13:50) online, you know, that, that's, that really is a very vague word. But I think about our (00:13:55) social channels, so maybe our Facebook and our Instagram. So that's, that's one (00:14:00) part of, um, of online.

But then we've got Google Business Reviews. We've gotta, (00:14:05) we've gotta have a strong, and now more than ever, we've gotta have a strong Google business (00:14:10) presence. We've gotta have a strong, um, website that, you know, and (00:14:15) nowadays we're talking about AI optimized and, you know- Mm-hmm ... SEO optimized. You know, we've gotta have a (00:14:20) strong presence.

So, and then the last part, um, could fall into more of our (00:14:25) ad spend. Are we spending money to get people to come see us? So (00:14:30) I kinda think of that as our online, um, channel or social channel. (00:14:35) And then, um, our last one is internal, and that's really, you know, where (00:14:40) we've got patients referring patients. So, you know, that could be, you know, why do we do (00:14:45) contests?

Why do we do all those things? It's because we want to build a, (00:14:50) you know, this sense of community within our practices where (00:14:55) our patients want somebody else to be a part of their community and (00:15:00) want to, you know, tell their friends and their family, "Hey, come in and I want you to be a (00:15:05) part of my orthodontic community at my orthodontist."

And so, you know, (00:15:10) they're, they are putting their name on the line for the reputation of (00:15:15) your practice. Mm-hmm. So that's, that's kinda how I think about those, those four pillars. 

Amy Epstein: (00:15:20) Yeah. That framework is a really helpful one. It's, it's one that we, (00:15:25) uh, that resonates with us, and we, we try to help our clients activate on those (00:15:30) four pillars as best we can, and some of those things that you mentioned are things we can help with.

We can help (00:15:35) to amplify, uh, happy patients into public reviews so that Google (00:15:40) visibility in that online channel, right? So the Google visibility- Yep ... is strong or help to (00:15:45) develop a case study on, um, a happy patient where the outcome was really strong (00:15:50) and get it on the website so the AI overview surfaces it in search.

And so- Mm-hmm ... (00:15:55) um, a- and even develop contests and things like that. For the community side of things. (00:16:00) But there's-- Of the channels that you talked about, of the pillars that you talked about, some (00:16:05) of them rely on the practice's, uh, credibility, (00:16:10) right? Like that sort of trust that, um, maybe one provider might have (00:16:15) about the practice to pass along a card.

And so my question is, what is (00:16:20) it about a practice and what's going on in the inside, the team, the (00:16:25) patient experience, the day-to-day op- uh, operations, that (00:16:30) helps to build that trust that then can be amplified later on? 

Jill Allen: Sure. (00:16:35) And I think, I think you really have to think about it like from, from doctor referrals.

Let's, let's just (00:16:40) start with, with that one because I do believe that each channel you can kind of think (00:16:45) about it and think, you know, what, what is it that, that amplifies or would, would (00:16:50) kind of show that proof of work that would, you know, make patients (00:16:55) or, or, or have somebody be able to send us or we get an outcome, a positive outcome of patients coming (00:17:00) into our practice.

And I think This is harder for a startup, (00:17:05) easier for an established practice. But I think first and foremost, it's (00:17:10) consistency of experience. 

Amy Epstein: Mm-hmm. 

Jill Allen: Um, it's, you know, patients come in. You know, I, (00:17:15) I always tell my startups, you know, you gotta remember that when we are working on building (00:17:20) our doctor referral network, um, it takes a good two to two and a half (00:17:25) years to build, um, I, I call them hot tell not docs, to build our hot tell doc- (00:17:30) not docs, uh, referral source because, you know, they only see their patients (00:17:35) every, you know, six months maybe.

You maybe only send them a letter about an (00:17:40) X-ray once when you see a patient and then maybe once again at a prog pan and then once (00:17:45) when you finish treatment. They may not see your proof of work as, uh, you know, (00:17:50) until you finish treatment, and it's gonna take a while for them to have enough (00:17:55) patients to see consistency of proof of work.

So for a startup, this is (00:18:00) a much harder thing. Mm. I think for an established practice, it should be (00:18:05) easier because you guys are-- have, have the volume of (00:18:10) patients that are coming from doctors where you can be consistent (00:18:15) and, and, and I th- I feel like a lot of times this is, again, one of those things where, "Eh, do (00:18:20) we really need to send that letter about treatment?"

Well, you know, my view is the letter (00:18:25) about treatment is not really about treatment. The letter is about marketing and top of (00:18:30) mind. Mm-hmm. And every time you send a letter or a piece of communication to a dentist (00:18:35) or somebody in that peer group, you are being consistent with your (00:18:40) communication. You're showing them how you communicate.

You're showing them what's important, (00:18:45) um, you know, on your end, and hopefully you're taking the time to find out (00:18:50) how they wanna be communicated to and what is important to them, so you're kinda hitting, you (00:18:55) know, their, their love language. And I really wanna know about oral hygiene. Well, you better have it in your letter every (00:19:00) single time or your text or whatever you're gonna send out.

So I think that (00:19:05) consistency is important in communication, consistency- Yeah ... in (00:19:10) experience, and being able to have the doctors (00:19:15) see the, the outcome of your work. And it's so-- I, I think it's (00:19:20) so basic, but yet we forget that we need to, you know, (00:19:25) we, we have to stay top of mind, and we have to stay- Mm-hmm ... for the dental side of it, (00:19:30) um, we have to stay, you know, in, in that channel and in front of them.

And, you know, for me, one (00:19:35) of the things I really don't love to hear as a consultant is people say, "Ah, you know, oh, (00:19:40) referrals from dentists is so old school. You should not rely on that." (00:19:45) And I say, "Oh my goodness, that, you know, I, I don't, I don't, I don't personally agree with that at all." We (00:19:50) need, you know, all these channels feeding us, um, new pa- new patients.

Dr. Leon Klempner: Yeah. And, and, you know, I, I, I couldn't (00:19:55) agree with that more. And, and- We face that all of the (00:20:00) time with our clients. Mm-hmm. So, I mean, when Amy and I started this business, we're marketing companies, (00:20:05) but we, we, when we started this, we both knew that (00:20:10) what was important to orthodontists are not the metrics of impressions and (00:20:15) clicks.

It's production and starts. Mm-hmm. That's why people come to us. Mm-hmm. And the (00:20:20) dental referrals are instrumental for that. And I could tell you, I, I'll tell you from (00:20:25) my own experience, I credit a lot of my success during my career (00:20:30) to, um, m- my nurturing of dentists, (00:20:35) and I attribute it to building a relationship.

I think (00:20:40) it's about relationships and, and doctors get stuck (00:20:45) on how to do that. They think that they have to bring them bagels, you know? (00:20:50) Or they think they have to take them to lunch, and they, nobody wants to do that. And I, and I never did that (00:20:55) either. But that doesn't mean you can't still build a relationship.

You mentioned one key element, which is (00:21:00) sharing some clinical letters and, and, you know, a- after you're in practice for a (00:21:05) while, you can show your work and that will differentiate you. But even for young docs that (00:21:10) don't have that runway, they could pick up the phone (00:21:15) and they, they see a patient. This is what I used to do all the time.

I, I looked at the day sheet and (00:21:20) I, and I have a list of my top five or six docs that would refer to me, (00:21:25) and I would look on the day sheet and say, "Who's coming in from one of those that I haven't (00:21:30) connected with in a while?" And I would say, "Okay, Sally's coming in at 4:00. She's (00:21:35) due for progress pan. I want a note on my desk to call her referring (00:21:40) doctor after I view the pan."

I'd pick up the phone. "Hey, I saw Sally the other day. Practice is (00:21:45) going really well. Took a pan. If you'd like it, I could send it over to you. I'm noticing she's got third (00:21:50) molars, but she's a little young. I'd like your opinion as to when you think, uh, we should (00:21:55) refer her for those." Mm-hmm. Simple, quick- Yep

easy. And I would keep a (00:22:00) spreadsheet. I'd have an Excel sheet and, like, once a month I would hit my top docs. Yeah. (00:22:05) I would always hit my top docs no matter what. Sometimes it's a pan, sometimes it's poor (00:22:10) hygiene. Mm-hmm. It's not always good news. Yep. "Hey, you know, I, I saw Megan the other day and, you (00:22:15) know, and I'm concerned about her hygiene.

We've been working with her. I told Mom. I've sent letters. I (00:22:20) wondered if you could get her in, maybe have your hygienist work with her." Done. Yep. You know, tho- (00:22:25) those are the types of things. So that's a, that's a tough one for most docs (00:22:30) to, to, you know, get their hands around, but it doesn't have to be (00:22:35) rocket science.

It just, you need a system, just like- Data ... you need a system for reviews, you (00:22:40) know? Yep. You know? Yep. So same type of thing. 

Jill Allen: Mm-hmm. Yeah. (00:22:45) I, I, I couldn't agree with you more. I mean, I think it's just having a good system that reviews data. (00:22:50) You have to know your data. You know, it's-- Uh, gone are the days where you can just be like, "I feel like I (00:22:55) should blah, blah, blah."

You know? Yep. Yep. Yep. You, you gotta, you gotta know. 

Dr. Leon Klempner: Yep. (00:23:00) So you mentioned something I think is-- would be very important to our listeners. 'Cause (00:23:05) our listeners, from, from our data, they're at all different stages. 

Jill Allen: Mm-hmm. (00:23:10) 

Dr. Leon Klempner: We've got startups. We've got established practices. We've (00:23:15) got, uh, practices that are looking to sell to OSOs, DSOs, (00:23:20) or to bring on an associate or part...

Different stages. And you mentioned before (00:23:25) that you have those pillars, right? Mm-hmm. That we all agree on are important. (00:23:30) And-- But you also said something interesting, which is depending on what stage you're (00:23:35) in, the balance of those pillars could vary. I wonder if you could talk a (00:23:40) little bit about that. 

Jill Allen: Sure.

Sure. So I'm gonna take it from a startup (00:23:45) view to an established practice view, if you don't mind, just because that's- Mm-hmm ... you know, I, I, I've worked- (00:23:50) Great ... primarily in that startup. So when we start startup practices, (00:23:55) um, you know, we focus on three main, three main pillars to begin with, and (00:24:00) most of our patients are coming from these three main pillars.

And that's forging (00:24:05) relationships with dentists, so that dental community. It's forging relationships (00:24:10) in the community so that we have brand recognition that (00:24:15) eventually- Mm-hmm ... I'm sorry, that brand awareness that eventually works into brand recognition. (00:24:20) Mm-hmm. And, um, and then we work on our social. So usually we're starting with (00:24:25) building our Google reviews and building our posts on our social, (00:24:30) and then we're m-m-migrating into maybe some online ad spend and (00:24:35) whatnot as, as we move on.

The one that we don't do a lot of focus on in our first (00:24:40) year, which is gonna kinda blow your mind, is internal. And why would that be? Because we (00:24:45) don't have enough patients to do a lot of referral. Not that we don't want them, not that we don't love them, not that we (00:24:50) won't take them, but we gotta focus on, you know, on our three buckets first.

(00:24:55) And usually year two in a startup, and then thereafter, what we (00:25:00) start to see is more patients referring patients, especially if we're (00:25:05) building on our office culture and we're building on our patient experience and we're (00:25:10) building on our social proof out there on our social channels. And so (00:25:15) what I tend to see is that usually by year four (00:25:20) or five, so we start off, if we were to look at our data, our, our patients are coming (00:25:25) in from dental referrals, online, and community.

And then (00:25:30) year two, we start to see internal starting to kick on. But usually (00:25:35) by year five and thereafter, um, I would say 50% (00:25:40) of our patients are, are coming from patient to (00:25:45) patient. 

Amy Epstein: Mm-hmm. 

Jill Allen: And the other 50% is now split between dental (00:25:50) referrals Online, social, and then our community. And (00:25:55) it's such a flip, and I feel like when I look at data from (00:26:00) ex- established practices that I work with, and I do, I work with some big ones that are, you know- Mm-hmm

2 million (00:26:05) plus practices. Their main referral source is patient to patient. And, (00:26:10) and, you know, it's, it's just such a beautiful thing to, to see that. And when (00:26:15) we don't see that, many times what we see is there's (00:26:20) also a lot of times a breakdown in communication or, you know, um, patient (00:26:25) experience. We're not seeing that, you know, that, that sense of (00:26:30) community with the patient wanting to send their friends to be part of that, that office's (00:26:35) community.

Um, so I, I think it's just a really interesting thing that I (00:26:40) see 'cause I get the, the, you know, the inside look at a startup all the way to an (00:26:45) established. And, you know, when, when that balance gets off, um, it's (00:26:50) really hard to fight to just have referrals for online marketing. Uh, like I said, you can't (00:26:55) have a real great table with one leg or two legs.

You know what I mean? Um, you know, it's, (00:27:00) it- but if you can have this really good balance of, you know, of, of that, it's, it really makes (00:27:05) a, it really makes a big difference. 

Amy Epstein: Yeah. And I've heard you describe, (00:27:10) um, these areas, even though some are bigger th- than others in (00:27:15) different stages, kind of as a continuous cycle, right?

Like they feed one (00:27:20) another. And from our vantage point, because we're constantly trying to figure (00:27:25) out- Mm-hmm ... you know, how, how to, uh, credit the appropriate (00:27:30) channel too- Mm-hmm ... that's, that's part of what we do. It's like, all right, we're in the marketing side of things. We gotta, you know- Yeah ... how much is (00:27:35) coming from online?

But what we realize too is that there is so much interplay- (00:27:40) Mm-hmm ... um, among these buckets. And, and the, you know, you get (00:27:45) referrals and, and we can, we can see this bear out i- in the pathway (00:27:50) toward the inquiry as well. It's like, "Well, you know, where did you hear about us?" "Oh, I got a GP referral." And (00:27:55) then it's like, "Did you check out the website?"

"I sure did." "Did you look at the reviews?" "Yes, I (00:28:00) did." "Did you ask a friend?" "I also asked my friend who goes to you and felt really (00:28:05) strong." You know, and so there's this one plus one plus one plus one equals (00:28:10) 10- Mm-hmm ... type of situation- Mm-hmm ... that I imagine also happens because that's the kind of (00:28:15) data that we're seeing on our side.

Um, so I just, I just wanted to make a note of that because I (00:28:20) think that, um, you know, as practices move from, from, (00:28:25) uh, stage to stage and they put more energy into different areas, you can see the (00:28:30) outgrowth of that effort- Yeah ... the fruit of that labor- Yeah ... bear out in, in different areas (00:28:35) as well. 

Jill Allen: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. I, I totally agree with you. 

Amy Epstein: So (00:28:40) let's, as we close up, um, sort of bring it back to something (00:28:45) that, that a ortho listener can take away, um, after listening to- Mm-hmm ... our (00:28:50) podcast today. So if you have, if we have somebody listening that, um, wants to (00:28:55) strengthen their practice starting tomorrow without spending more (00:29:00) money- 

Dr. Leon Klempner: Mm-hmm

Amy Epstein: what would be the advice that you would give? 

Jill Allen: You know, I (00:29:05) think the advice that I would give is evaluate your systems first and foremost. You know, one of (00:29:10) the, the big things, I get a lot of clients that'll call me and say, "Hey Jill, um, (00:29:15) you know, I wanna... I'm, I'm evaluating, you know, spending all this money on marketing," (00:29:20) yada, yada, yada.

And, you know, one of the first things I ask is, "Well, how are you converting?" 

Amy Epstein: (00:29:25) Mm-hmm. 

Jill Allen: You know? Um- Yeah ... and, and I think what, what you have to be asking yourself (00:29:30) before, you know, you spend, and, and this is, y- you know, before you spend any money (00:29:35) at all, is are your systems efficient and working (00:29:40) to convert the patients if they are coming into your practice?

Because you can spend (00:29:45) tens of thousands of dollars on getting patients into your practice, but if you (00:29:50) can't convert them, um, and I, and I mean a lead to a consult (00:29:55) convert, I mean a consult to a start convert, I mean a, a (00:30:00) communication online to somebody actually connecting with a live (00:30:05) person or an email communication to somebody connecting with a live person.

If you (00:30:10) can't do that then you're gonna really have a hard time. (00:30:15) And so- Yeah, what's it for? Yeah. Exactly. I mean- And, and so if, if, if I were to say how can (00:30:20) you do this without spending money? Evaluate your systems. Nowadays almost every (00:30:25) single practice is on a voiceover IP system. One of the very easiest and (00:30:30) things that you can do is evaluate what is the patient experience like when they are (00:30:35) reaching out for the first time?

What is it like when they fill a form out? What does it feel like to get something (00:30:40) back? How long does it take for somebody to respond? What does that new patient phone call (00:30:45) sound like, um, when it's the front desk that's been trained answering it to the (00:30:50) clinical team member who's running up front because you don't want the phone to ring more than three times?

Are they (00:30:55) getting the same experience? Are they- Mm-hmm. You know, s- you know, what, what is that, what do (00:31:00) all of those things sound like? Um, because if, you know, if you can kinda (00:31:05) evaluate those I think those are leaky buckets. You know, that's, that's an, an (00:31:10) easy thing to do, you know, to work on the practice without putting money into the (00:31:15) practice.

The, the last thing I would say, totally separate, but, you know, we've all, (00:31:20) all practices should have a pretty good observation pool. And what does that (00:31:25) look like for you? I mean, are you converting out of that observation pool (00:31:30) the way you should? Is there a system in place that gets those... I mean, to me those are (00:31:35) w- very warm leads.

Uh, you know, if you're taking the time to see them every six months do you have a (00:31:40) breakdown just in how often you're... You know, usually That's the last, you know, group of (00:31:45) patients in the office that gets called. Uh, that's the last ones that get followed up on. Y- you know, (00:31:50) we'll spend more time following up with our will call backs that may, you know, we got a 50% chance (00:31:55) that they're even gonna start, where we've got observations that are ready to go, and we should know when (00:32:00) they're ready to start, but we're not following up with them because that's not priority.

So that's, that's, (00:32:05) that's, uh, some of the areas where I would start. 

Amy Epstein: That (00:32:10) seems smart because you don't want to pour, uh, (00:32:15) fuel into a machine, this is gonna be a terrible analogy, but you know, that, (00:32:20) that isn't operating optimally, right? Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So tighten it up. I had... Yeah. 

Dr. Leon Klempner: Uh, uh, (00:32:25) I'm sorry. I, Amy, I had a client just a couple weeks ago, came in, uh, called me up.(00:32:30) 

"The marketing's not working." I said, "Okay. That could be. You (00:32:35) know, let's, you know, let's look at the data." Mm-hmm. You know? It's like I feel the li- I (00:32:40) feel that the- 

Amy Epstein: That's your 

Dr. Leon Klempner: tagline, 

Amy Epstein: by the way. Let's look at 

Dr. Leon Klempner: the data. What's that? Let's look at the data. Let's look at the data. I agree with him. Yeah, (00:32:45) because I hear- That's, that's him

what I hear is, you know, "I feel that things aren't working the way they're supposed to." I'm 

Amy Epstein: gonna 

Dr. Leon Klempner: (00:32:50) stop you right there- You know, I feel- ... 

Amy Epstein: with the I feel bit. Yeah. 

Dr. Leon Klempner: So anyway, I said let's look at the data, but (00:32:55) this is a problem with a lot of practices. Mm-hmm. I says, "So I l- you know, leaky (00:33:00) buckets is something I talk about all the time."

And so I says, "Let's look at them." "Well, I don't know. (00:33:05) You know, I'm not tracking that." Mm-hmm. So I, you know? Mm-hmm. So right away we're behind the eight ball. (00:33:10) Mm-hmm. You know, let's look at the observation. How many starts? Not many. Why not? What's (00:33:15) happening? Huge leaky buckets. So you know, the, you know, before pouring money, (00:33:20) to Amy's analogy, into the top of the funnel, we have to make sure that we're, we, (00:33:25) things plugged up.

Mm-hmm. And I think that's where services like the ones that you (00:33:30) provide become so valuable in terms of translating (00:33:35) the, the work of bringing a qualified patient into the practice- Mm-hmm ... to the (00:33:40) end goal, which we all agree upon, is a start. 

Jill Allen: Mm-hmm. Yep. (00:33:45) Yep. Yep. 

Amy Epstein: Jill, thank you so much. Yeah. It has been a pleasure (00:33:50) talking to you today, as always.

Um, we appreciate your time, and (00:33:55) we would like to know if our listeners would want to contact you, get more (00:34:00) information, uh, how do they reach you? How do they learn more? 

Jill Allen: Yeah, so that's, that's great. So if (00:34:05) you wanna check out my website, it's (00:34:10) www.practiceresults.com. If you wanna shoot me an email, uh, you got some questions, it's (00:34:15) [email protected].

Um, and then of course I, I have a (00:34:20) podcast, um, and would love more listeners, uh, just, you know, li- like any (00:34:25) podcaster would, and you can find my podcast on any of the, um, (00:34:30) podcasting sites out there, and it's, uh, Hey Docs! With an exclamation point at the end. 

Amy Epstein: That (00:34:35) sounds great. Uh, again, thank you. We look forward to seeing you on the circuits, uh, and (00:34:40) talking to you soon.

Yes. Have a great day. 

Jill Allen: Yeah. Thank you guys. Yep. Thanks, Jill. Thank you. 

Amy Epstein: You can (00:34:45) subscribe to The Golden Age of Orthodontics or download other episodes on Apple, (00:34:50) Spotify, SoundCloud, if you wanna see our faces on YouTube, uh, or wherever you get your (00:34:55) podcasts. And if you enjoyed this episode, which I'm sure that you will, we'd appreciate it if you (00:35:00) would tell a colleague.

And for more information about People in Practice, you can visit our website at (00:35:05) pplpractice.com. 

Dr. Leon Klempner: Thank you for watching and/or (00:35:10) listening, depending on how you're consuming this. Uh, we work very closely with (00:35:15) Jill and her team, helping orthos adjust to what has become a very competitive (00:35:20) marketplace now, uh, with the goal of more case starts.

(00:35:25) So if you would like to ask me any questions at all, uh, shoot me an email at (00:35:30) [email protected]. Be sure to check out our partner page for any (00:35:35) special offers with our partners. Big shout-out to KL Owen for sponsoring this (00:35:40) podcast. And remember, for forward-thinking orthodontists, it has never been a better (00:35:45) time to be an orthodontist.

We are in the golden age, so take (00:35:50) advantage of it. See you next time. Bye.(00:35:55) 

Thank you for (00:36:00) listening to the Golden Age of Orthodontics podcast. Subscribe to our (00:36:05) podcast on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or visit (00:36:10) our website at pplpractice.com