Ep 82 - Is the AAO still worth it? CEO Trey Lawrence answers!

AAO membership delivers far more than most orthodontists realize, and the CEO of the American Association of Orthodontists, Trey Lawrence, is here to prove it. In this episode of the Golden Age of Orthodontics, Dr. Leon Klempner and Amy Epstein sit down with Trey to explore how the American Association of Orthodontists is evolving to meet today's most pressing challenges. From a powerful legal toolkit for new orthodontists to exclusive buying group benefits for 19,000 members, the AAO is fighting hard on multiple fronts. Trey breaks down the association's bold stance on AI in orthodontic treatment planning and why keeping the human in command is non-negotiable as technology reshapes the specialty.

What You Will Learn In This Episode:

• AAO membership benefits extend well beyond continuing education. Trey walks through the new legal toolkit for orthodontists, including a contract guide designed to protect recent graduates from dangerous rookie mistakes in their first associate employment agreements.

• The AAO's human-in-command framework establishes that no AI treatment-planning tool should operate without a licensed clinician holding ultimate responsibility, thereby protecting both patient safety and the doctor-patient relationship.

• The AAO's consumer awareness program is actively shaping how AI-powered search and large language models like ChatGPT answer patient questions, ensuring that searches about orthodontic care consistently point toward board-certified orthodontists.

Subscribe to the Golden Age of Orthodontics and our sister podcast, Practice Talk, hosted by Lacie Ellis, wherever you listen to stay updated on orthodontic innovation and real-world practice strategies. Visit People in Practice for more insights and to connect with our team for practice growth solutions.

TIMESTAMPS: 

00:00 Is AAO membership still worth the dues? Introduction of Trey Lawrence, CEO of the American Association of Orthodontists

05:03 Trey details the AAO's new legal toolkit for orthodontists and how the associate contract guide protects new grads

11:14 How the AAO is tackling rising orthodontic practice overhead through endorsed partnerships, cybersecurity, and 401 (k) benefits

18:07 Trey explains the AAO's human-in-command policy and its AI in orthodontic treatment planning position paper

24:30 The AAO's consumer awareness program and how it is influencing AI search engines to direct patients to orthodontists

29:52 Trey addresses what orthodontists are telling him: concerns over general dentist competition and the state of orthodontic practice management

36:54 A preview of the AAO annual session in Orlando, including the Universal Studios buyout and what members can expect from world-class CE and networking

KEY TAKEAWAYS: 

• Signing an orthodontic associate employment agreement without fully understanding it is one of the costliest mistakes new graduates make. The AAO's contract guide provides critical commentary on every clause, including the warning that verbal promises from employers mean nothing once ownership changes hands.

• The AAO is proactively engaging with the FDA and state dental boards through a formal white paper on AI in orthodontics, ensuring regulators view the association as a trusted authority before harmful policies are enacted.

• General dentist competition in orthodontics is real, but Trey argues that orthodontists who embrace smart pricing strategies, remote monitoring, and digital efficiency will make choosing a specialist an obvious decision for the vast majority of patients.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

What follows is an AI-generated transcript. The transcript may contain errors and is not a substitute for watching the video.

GAOO Ep 82 - Trey Lawrence v1

(00:00:00) Dr. Leon Klempner: Is joining the AAO still relevant for us orthos? Today we're asking CEO, Trey Lawrence, the hard questions, is it worth the annual dues? And are we really, truly stronger together? From lowering overhead with a 19,000 member buying group to keeping the doctor's judgment central in the AI driven world, we're finding out why the AAO just might be your most valuable strategic partner.

(00:00:33) Stay with me.

(00:00:37) Trey Lawrence: Welcome to the Golden Age of 

(00:00:39) Dr. Leon Klempner: Orthodontics.

(00:00:54) One thing we know is that the future of orthodontics is digital For me, the KLON (00:01:00) custom solution checks off all of the boxes, takes the guesswork out of treatment planning, reduces treatment time, and appointments, and lets the team best support the orthodontist. If you haven't already, I suggest you check them out.

(00:01:14) You can get more information as well as a special offer on our website. Just go to ppl practice.com and click our partner tab. Welcome to the Golden Age of Orthodontics. You don't already know me. And by the way, this is year seven that we've done this on a monthly basis with over 2 million views. You should know me by now, but for those that are just joining, I am Leon Klempner, retired board certified orthodontist, director of ortho at Mount Sinai Hospital, part-time faculty in the ortho programs at both Harvard and Montefiore.

(00:01:50) And. The current president of the New York State Society of Orthodontists, as well as the CEO of people in practice. So I (00:02:00) practiced for about 40 years before co-founding people in practice with my partner, my daughter, and my podcast host. Welcome Amy Epstein. 

(00:02:11) Amy Epstein: Thank you. Um, it was really your idea that orthodontists deserve.

(00:02:18) More strategic marketing, what other businesses, um, are able to have with larger agencies and um, you know, putting together the marketing background that I have and the orthodontic insight that you have in order to serve orthodontists, orthodontists with the type of strategies, um, that can really help grow their business.

(00:02:39) 'cause they're not. Different, uh, than than other local businesses are. So anyway, it's been a, a fantastic ride and we're, yeah, we're seven years into the podcast and 15 years into people in practice, and it's still fun and interesting every day. And one of the most interesting things we get to do is talk to interesting people (00:03:00) on this podcast.

(00:03:01) And today we are thrilled to have Trey Lawrence back on the show. Another person that you probably know, so I'll do a short intro, but Trey is the CEO of the American Association of Orthodontists, and he leads the strategic vision for the 19,000 members that they have worldwide. By way of background, Trey has a master's degree from Harvard and over 20 years of experience as a commercial litigator, and he previously served as the aos general counsel and VP of Advocacy, where he was a pivotal voice in protecting the specialty before Congress and federal agencies.

(00:03:37) He's an expert. On the intersection of healthcare, law and technology dedicated to ensuring the AAO acts as a proactive partner for orthodontists in this, as we know, very rapidly evolving market. Trey, thank you so much for being here. We appreciate it. Always good to see you. 

(00:03:54) Trey Lawrence: Of course. It's always fun to spend time with the two of you.

(00:03:58) Amy Epstein: Thanks. 

(00:03:59) Dr. Leon Klempner: Well, we (00:04:00) appreciate you being here. For sure. Sub Trey. I don't know if you remember last time we were person to person. It was Niso in Florida last year, and, uh, I had told you that I was newly elected as the president of the New York State Society of Orthodontists. And I ran some ideas by you. I felt that, you know, uh.

(00:04:22) Residents and recent grads could use some additional training. And you know, here in New York State, we're gonna develop a series of webinars to kind of help orient them from a business perspective. But I know that the AAO's been working on a new member legal starting kit, which I think would be really important.

(00:04:45) So can you kind of let us walk us through a little bit about. Let's say one specific form or contact in the kit that has saved a recent grad from a catastrophic (00:05:00) rookie first year mistake. No names though, please. 

(00:05:03) Trey Lawrence: No, of course. HIPAA protected or whatever the applicable was. Just bad 

(00:05:07) Amy Epstein: form, I think. Yeah. 

(00:05:10) Trey Lawrence: No, I'm, I'm so excited that you asked about that because to me, I continue to think that the legal resources, the AO offers are one of the most valuable member benefits that we have and perhaps still a little underutilized.

(00:05:23) And so our thinking in developing this new member, um, legal toolkit was to pull together, I mean, there's a large collection, if you go on the AO member website, there is a large collection of legal documents. Templates and contracts and informed consents and all of that, and it was really our effort to pull together the most essential ones for somebody who's just getting started so that you don't have to wade through all of those things and figure out what you need.

(00:05:51) So there's one in there in particular that I'm always telling residents. Specifically about, and it is a, let me make sure I get the title right. It's the (00:06:00) AAO contract guide. So basically what this is the AAO has a template associate agreement, basically. So an employment agreement between a practice and a and an associate.

(00:06:11) And this contract guide takes that template and it's kind of the Cliff's Notes version. Although I say Cliff's Notes, my. Two 20-year-old kids are always telling me every time I say that, there's something else out there. Now, it's not Cliff's Notes anymore, but for those of us who remember the, 

(00:06:26) Amy Epstein: oh, I 

(00:06:26) Trey Lawrence: remember Cliffs the yellow.

(00:06:27) Yeah, the yellow. Yellow booklets. The Cliff notes. Yeah. So this is the Cliff's Notes version of the AAO Associate Agreement that has commentary under each section. So whether you are talking with an employer that's actually using the A EO contractor, many times, most of the language. It is essentially the same in a lot of those agreements, so you can even find similar language in your agreement, but that commentary underneath each section will tell you what that section means, what the intent is, all of those kind of things.

(00:06:57) So it's a really great tool to (00:07:00) walk you through a contract as you're looking at it. As you're looking at a job, so why that's important is because I've seen a couple of different iterations of the same problems that, uh, residents can get into with those contracts coming out and going into that first job.

(00:07:16) I think the problem is you get a job offer, you're super excited, you just wanna get it locked down as quick as possible. So, you know, all this legal stuff, blah, blah, blah, whatever. Let's just get my signature on here. And you don't wanna do that. The biggest problem in particular that I've seen are residents who enter into employment arrangements with people that they already have some kind of a relationship with.

(00:07:39) It's either maybe a friend of the family, kind of a situation. I've also seen pretty frequently where, um. It's maybe a, a part-time faculty member at your program. So somebody, you already have a level of trust and so then you get this big scary legal document. It's got all this stuff in it. You may not understand all of it.

(00:07:56) You probably not thinking through the long-term implications of a (00:08:00) lot of it. And I've talked to several residents who ask questions and say, Hey, I, you know, I was a little curious. This doesn't sound good to me. You know, can you tell me what you're thinking here? And the doctor inevitably says, don't worry about all that stuff.

(00:08:13) The lawyers wrote that. I don't even know what it means. I. I'm not worried about it, I'm not going to enforce it. And so my fear is that a resident is then just going to in, you know, in faith on that statement, go ahead and sign the contract and not worry about it. But there's two big reasons not to do that.

(00:08:31) Number one, as lawyers, we're trained to just assume the worst of humanity and everybody, and just assume that even though somebody says. They're never going to enforce that. They still could, but I think more importantly is a situation where there's been a transition in practice ownership while that contract is still binding and all of a sudden the person who told you, don't worry about it, I'm never going to enforce that has gone.

(00:08:56) Maybe they passed away, maybe they retired, sold to (00:09:00) practice, and now then the new person comes in who doesn't have any relationship with you, and whatever's in writing. Memorialized there for all time is what binds your relationship. And so this person can absolutely enforce whatever's written in that contract.

(00:09:14) And so that's where I think something like that contract guide with the commentary is so useful because it can help raise those red flags that you maybe not have. You know, thinking about some concern in an area, and then the lawyer advice is if it's in the contract, if it stays in the contract, you've gotta make sure you can live with it no matter what happens in, in your relationship with that practice in the future.

(00:09:38) And if you're not comfortable with it, then you need to get it out. 

(00:09:42) Amy Epstein: Where, so Trey? Yeah. Well, where can we find that? That's my question. Same question. Where is that? 

(00:09:47) Trey Lawrence: Yeah, so if you go on the member website, um, there's a tab, I believe it's practice management that is up at the top of the website. And if you click on that tab, a menu will drop down.

(00:09:57) And one of the, the items on there will be legal (00:10:00) resource center. So all of our legal resources live under that heading. But I believe the new member, um, toolkit is specifically listed as one of the items in that dropdown menu. 

(00:10:10) Amy Epstein: Okay. That's great. Perfect. And what we can do is elevate that too on our website.

(00:10:15) Yeah. And point to it. We'll put a link and make sure we shortcut to the, uh, key things we talk about today. 

(00:10:20) Trey Lawrence: Yeah, absolutely. That's great. 

(00:10:22) Amy Epstein: Uh, so we talked to a lot of, uh, new orthos and orthos who are sort of in the early stages. They're starting their practices, they're buying into practices, they are buying.

(00:10:34) Uh, you know, transitioning in some way. Um, but we also have a lot of mid-career orthos who have been members of the AAO for a long time. But the, the needs of members I imagine are shifting drastically, especially in the past, you know, year or two, overhead is up, industry is a little flat. Uh, you know, orthos are questioning every expense from (00:11:00) inside the practice to things that they're involved in.

(00:11:02) How. Is the AAO changing its strategy to be able to match up with the needs of the orthos whose whole world is shifting around them? 

(00:11:14) Trey Lawrence: Yeah. Great question. So I'll give you two um, examples there. Uh, one on more of the hard physical side that the goods and the stuff that the practice needs, and then one on the labor.

(00:11:27) Side. So on the, on the stuff that you need for your practice to run ao, we, we've had endorsed partnerships for a long time and those are really intended to get a, a o, um, exclusive pricing or other arrangements for members from companies that they use. Over the past couple of years, I think we've really stepped up the, the.

(00:11:50) Quality of the partners that we have. I think we're getting close to a point where we have endorsed partnerships with companies that really represent the whole spectrum of what somebody (00:12:00) needs in practice. So there's some new things in there. Uh, you know, certainly all of the, the supplies and the, the materials that you need, the hard, the equipment, those kind of things.

(00:12:10) We are, we have had partnerships for several years. A couple that are newer for us. One is in the cybersecurity area. Unfortunately, that's something that. Everybody has to worry about, you know, it's the old joke about how many of you have experienced a data breach in your practice and half their hands in the room go up and then the speaker says, the other half of you just don't know that you've had one.

(00:12:31) Amy Epstein: Don't 

(00:12:32) know. 

(00:12:32) Trey Lawrence: Yeah. Yeah. And so we have an endorsed partnership with a great firm that can get you AAO exclusive member exclusive pricing and services on cybersecurity. Similarly, we have a, uh, partner in the 401k space. If you're looking for ways, you know, with the turbulent employment situation and finding assistance and staff and the trouble in keeping them, your practice, if a 401k type of option is something that you'd like to utilize to keep them around longer, that's a newer one for (00:13:00) us that, uh, we have recently entered into an endorsed partnership.

(00:13:04) There, a company that can help get you set up with 401k or other options like that for your staff. And again. Exclusive to AAO members, uh, on this pricing and some of the other services there. So I really feel like, you know, we're not quite that there yet, but within the next year or two, I really think that we'll have a full spectrum of essentially every business need that a practice owner will have that will have those kind of arrangements on.

(00:13:30) I think the other thing that people forget about sometimes is annual session. And for all of those business partners, uh, the AAO and Orthodontist annual session is a, you know, it's the biggest show in the universe, one time kind of opportunity. And I always encourage members to not overlook the many of this show.

(00:13:49) Uh. Only, or show specific deals that companies will have when they're exhibiting at the AOS annual session. I think that's a really, can be a really strategic time for a practice to (00:14:00) get some savings that they wouldn't otherwise by intentionally looking for and taking advantage of some of the values.

(00:14:06) That are there. So that's, like I said, that's all. We're more on the goods and services part of running a practice on the employment part, you know, I've already mentioned the turbulent times that we live in and finding and keeping staff, and we have really stepped up our advocacy for the regulatory piece that governs the hiring of assistance.

(00:14:27) And so there are a number of states where, I mean mean employment. You know, finding workers is tough anywhere in any business if in orthodontics in particular, there are certain states that either because the requirements for somebody to be an orthodontic assistant are so unreasonably high that it almost makes it not economically feasible for somebody who's interested.

(00:14:50) Doing that to pursue that and, and get properly certified or qualified to work in their state or in other instances, the scope of what the assistants can perform for the (00:15:00) practice is so limited that it, it limits how, how economically beneficial those can be to the practice and so on Both of those fronts in a number of places.

(00:15:10) Michigan, I, I almost hesitate to list the states because there's been so many that have been active New York, uh, where Dr. Klempner is certainly one of them because, um, uh, an orthodontic assistant has to have a degree from a program and in the New York City area, I forget the numbers. It's basically no possible way that the very small handful.

(00:15:30) Programs that can graduate, certified assistants can supply all of the dentist and dental specialties in the New York City area. So in some of those places we're lowering. We really went on the job training under the supervision of the orthodontist as kind of our touchstone that we're shooting for and, and working for in those kind of efforts.

(00:15:48) And then in other places. Ontario is a good one. That's some new territory for us being up in Canada, but where the scope of practice for the assistance was so limited that we're working to try to allow them to do (00:16:00) more duties under the, the direct supervision of an orthodontist. And so we're hoping that that can, has been and will continue to benefit practices as well on the economics.

(00:16:09) Mm. 

(00:16:11) Dr. Leon Klempner: That's a big deal for us here in New York. I can tell you, and you know, it, it, it's, it's hard enough attracting people into the office and, and it's impossible to, to get them trained. And as a result, uh, you know, a lot of orthodontists are, are forced to, you know, hire, um, dental hygienists for example, because they have the license to do work that generally doesn't require a dental hygienist level of expertise, but.

(00:16:40) If they need to pay, you know, the, the salary commensurate with it. So it, it, it's a huge issue for us, for sure. But I wanna shift the conversation a little bit because, you know, certainly when I talk to orthodontists, staffing comes up. But what invariably comes up is the topic of ai and, you know, it's one of my (00:17:00) favorite subjects, uh, and one that I'm most concerned about at the same time.

(00:17:05) I gave a lecture at the A a L last year about AI, and I put up a slide that emphasized that AI plus, hi, what I would consider human. Intelligence is better than either one by themselves. Um, but I know that the AAO has introduced something and I think it was called human in command, HHIC. I'm not sure, but I wanna know what concerns me.

(00:17:33) Clinically is almost every vendor has AI now, uh, in incorporated into their software. And I'm concerned that, um, what, what's being done, uh, to prevent. The a ai uh, button from being the go-to button for treatment planning cases and not incorporating the (00:18:00) expertise, you know, of the clinician and certainly the doctor patient relationship.

(00:18:08) Trey Lawrence: That's a great, yeah. How, how many podcast episodes do we have scheduled for just this topic? Um, this is one we could talk about for a while, but, you know, we, I think we learned very well from the direct to consumer era, which we're still in, but that when it's, it's the perpetual challenge with technology, where technology can be used in many good ways.

(00:18:30) There are many potential misuses too, and ai, I think certainly is the, you know, dictionary definition of that kind of situation. And I think what's really a challenge, especially when we look at advocacy and what the AAO can do is we're only on the horizon of what's coming. And so we don't really know all of the misuses yet.

(00:18:50) So when you, when you set to draft model legislation or policy, all of those kind of things, you have to do it in a way. That can account for the things, the (00:19:00) bad things that you don't even know are gonna be out there yet. So what I am really proud about is that the AAO, again, having learned a little bit from direct to consumer is that we're on top of it.

(00:19:10) We are, we are already working, have already put in many hours of work. We had a group that we assembled a task force that was made up of practitioners, um, educators and researchers. The, some clinicians who are kind of on the cutting edge of technology and then some of our trusted industry partners, and so they have created a position paper, essentially a white paper that the very, very final touches are being done on it Now.

(00:19:37) I'm really hopeful that in the next. Four or five months, maybe we'll get to the point where that will be able to be published in the A-J-O-D-O and, and start circulating it widely. But as you mentioned, Dr. Klempner, really the touchstone for us there is that human and command concept. And basically what that is, is not allowing the AI to run on kind of an (00:20:00) autonomous self-governing way where it doesn't have, where only the AI itself has oversight over the results.

(00:20:08) The work that's processed or how it's employed, um, clinically, then there always needs to be a human that at the end of the day, has that ultimate responsibility. And I really believe that as we do, um, start advocacy efforts on this, that is going to be the touchstone. Now how exactly, you know, what that looks like in the regulations are in legislation, I think we're still going to have to wait and see, but what we're doing this time.

(00:20:34) Again, having learned a little bit from the direct to consumer era is to get ahead of this. And so as soon as that position paper, uh, those last couple of touches are put on it, we're going to begin creating a relationship with state dental boards, with the Food and Drug Administration, with some other federal agencies to let them know that we've been working on this, to provide that paper to them.

(00:20:56) And hopefully when they do start to then tackle those (00:21:00) issues on the regulatory side, they'll look at the AAO as a trusted voice. So we've already established that relationship with them on that topic, as well as establish some expertise there. So I'm hopeful we're going to be able to do that even as soon as our professional advocacy conference, which is coming up in just a couple of weeks, we've already scheduled.

(00:21:18) A couple of meetings with federal regulators based on the assumption that we'll be able to share that position paper with them and get started on it. Mm-hmm. So, a lot of unknowns, but I feel very confident that to the extent that you could plan for the unknowns, that by assembling this group of all of these great minds who put all their input together in this paper, we've created this paper and will now start introducing it.

(00:21:42) That's really. All we can do at this point. And then monitor, monitor, monitor. Make sure that those principles are being, uh, applied. Oh, and you know, I apologize. One other thing that I mentioned on the, or I forgot to mention, on the human and command concept, there's another issue on the legal side (00:22:00) when it comes to this AI kind of running autonomously and not human oversight, is who's ultimately responsible.

(00:22:06) At the end of the day, if something goes wrong. And that's another thing that we saw with Direct to Consumer, where a patient gets online orders, these aligners, they come in and then they have a bad experience and then they don't know who they can go to. They go to the dental board and the dental board says, well, we regulate licensees.

(00:22:23) We don't know who the licensee is here, so we can't regulate, we can't punish a company for what's happened. And then you go to somewhere else like the FDA. And they say, well, no, that's the practice, the dentistry, you've gotta go to your dental board about that. It almost became this, this loop that you get stuck in where the patient doesn't know who ultimately has legal responsibility.

(00:22:42) Yeah. I think that's another important aspect of the human in command is so that when, if there are misuses or things go wrong, there's somebody that ultimately can be held responsible and the patient get the, the recourse that they need to address the problem that they've had. 

(00:22:58) Amy Epstein: Yeah. I mean, taking that (00:23:00) same idea, but almost like backing it up a step as to how they got to where they are, like how they actually got into treatment or how they actually got into the situation.

(00:23:09) They're, they're in, is that. The, the searches are changing for the information that they're looking for, right? So you, you ha have a need or have a child, or you're, you're interested in, in orthodontics. And it's not just Google anymore. You've got large language models like chat, BT and Claude and AI search.

(00:23:30) Google's AI mode is probably the most. Uh, commonly used one, and they're looking, it's the same questions, but they're getting straight up answers. Now, from the, the ai, um, that's, that's bypassing all of the, I don't wanna say bypassing the credible information. The answers that are being given are based on credible information, but the, they're not referencing anymore the credible the source.

(00:23:55) And so how. How, then on the sort of (00:24:00) patient oriented side, does the AAO get involved in that sort of education of the large language models and the ai and then ultimately the patient? So that when they're asking for advice or asking about orthodontics, um, they get the right information that points them in the right direction and not kind of like, well, you can do this yourself, just, uh, you know, rubber bands and or, and that's the worst case scenario, right?

(00:24:27) But there's everything in between. 

(00:24:30) Trey Lawrence: No, I am so excited that you all asked about this. So this is one of my favorite things to talk about these days because it's another example where I really feel like the AO is kind of on the cutting edge of, of our efforts here. So, uh, hopefully every AO member knows that the AO has a consumer awareness program.

(00:24:46) We usually spend between four and a half and $5 million a year on. As the name would indicate consumer awareness and education resources. Traditionally the goal of that has been to direct (00:25:00) consumers or potential patients back to the AOS consumer website, where among other things, they'll then find a, um, find a doctor locator where they can find an orthodontist and AO member orthodontist in their area to go visit.

(00:25:13) But that consumer awareness program has really taken on a new. Level of importance over the last year or two as, as you said, Amy, with the growth of patients' use of Chad GPT, and other generative AI as a part of their process. So about, oh, it's probably been six months ago or so. I just, on a whim I thought, you know, I'm going to pretend like, and I wasn't signed in on Chad GBT, uh, it was a random browser, so I didn't know who I was and I thought, I'm gonna pretend that I'm a parent who's looking for.

(00:25:45) Treatment for their child. And I'm gonna ask Chad, GBT if I need to take my child to an orthodontist or if it's okay if I take them to a general dentist. And so I asked the question and Chad, GBT gave the answer that sounded like it was straight off to aos Consumer awareness (00:26:00) website that, you know, said, although general dentists could perform orthodontic treatment, it's highly recommended that you take your child to see an orthodontist.

(00:26:06) And then I asked a couple of follow up questions as to why. And it again, all of the answers that we always give on the two and a half to three years of specialized. Education and orthodontics and the fact that an orthodontist focuses on only orthodontic treatment, make them truly the expert. So, and then I even asked a couple of follow up questions, trying to push it still to say, you know, a GPS okay too.

(00:26:28) I asked, well, what if it's only clear aligners? It's not brackets and wires, same answers back. Although, you know, gps, you know, it's highly recommended to take them to an orthodontist. So I was really happy with that. I thought, you know, I'm gonna give it a few months and then come back and see if the answers had changed.

(00:26:44) I did it a few months later. It was the same answers again. So the second time I did it, I then I kind of let the curtain down at the end of it and I told Jack Chad, GPT, I said, okay. The reason I'm asking this is because I'm the CEO for the American Association of Orthodontists, and I'm curious about the (00:27:00) answers that you gave me.

(00:27:01) Can you tell me what sources you were drawing from? To give me those answers and it just spit back the whole list of the aaos consumer website and all of the things that are up there. 

(00:27:11) Dr. Leon Klempner: Yeah, 

(00:27:11) Trey Lawrence: and then I asked it. I said, why? Did you rely on those resources when you gave me those answers? And it said, because the AAO is the most trusted, credible voice in orthodontics.

(00:27:22) It's a not-for-profit. Um, it's a professional association. Uh, you know, so that was one big piece was the credibility side. The other big piece was because of the traffic. Mm-hmm. Two, the aaos consumer website and Yep. And chat GPT uses how much traffic a website gets. Yep. As an indicator of how credible that website is.

(00:27:40) Definitely. Yeah, 

(00:27:42) Amy Epstein: so are others. There are other factors too. I mean, the, the, you know, the number of links that are pointing back shows authority, like, you know, a lot of ortho websites point back to the AAO and they're referencing seven and up, and as you know, all of that, um, you have, so sorry to cut you off.

(00:27:55) It's just that you have a great platform to be able to put out credible (00:28:00) information because you are the authority. So, um, it's a great place to be at when this is happening. 

(00:28:07) Dr. Leon Klempner: And there are lessons here, lessons here for our, for our listeners about your website and about your digital presence because the game's changing and you need to adapt.

(00:28:19) We, we've, we've been on this for a while at People in practice, um, and we have, we designed the websites from the ground. With this in mind because we need to be able to adapt to the changes going on. But we are going to do a whole podcast with you, Trey, on ai and I'm gonna get it into the schedule 'cause certainly we can talk about it and it's very relevant, however.

(00:28:46) Time is of the essence and, uh, and we don't want to take up all of your day, but, uh, you know, you have, um, given me your email and your phone number, and you've told me that you know, you're, you're (00:29:00) easily accessible, which made me feel great until I heard that you do that with everybody. So. But that's okay because, you know, I mean, that's what we want reader.

(00:29:09) You're still special. You are still 

(00:29:11) Amy Epstein: special. 

(00:29:11) Dr. Leon Klempner: Absolutely. Still special. Thank you, Amy. Yeah, I don't know. I'm you giving it to everybody. You feel okay? Yeah, I'm a little down there. But anyway, so, um, so you hearing from the membership, so I, I really want know, you know, if I took a peek into your inbox, you know, what are orthos telling you?

(00:29:31) There's so much changing in our profession right now. There's so many things coming our way. You know, things are kind of flat in terms of the growth of, of the industry. Overhead's up, technology's expensive. The p and l, you know, I'm hearing it, so I'm curious what, what are you hearing and what's going on with the specialty?

(00:29:53) Trey Lawrence: The biggest, the biggest one that I get, so a couple of. Aspects to this. I think this is the (00:30:00) most common concern that I personally hear. And then also I think it's also reflected in our AAO data. One in particular is when we have, you know, it's thankfully not a, not a large number of members who don't renew their membership, but there are those obviously every year who don't.

(00:30:14) And what we do, uh, either a survey or personal outreach to them and ask why they didn't renew their membership. They also give the same answer. And it all really comes down to concern over. GPS doing orthodontic treatment and the perception of how that is, uh, impacting orthodontist bottom line. And so on the, on the membership side, we frequently hear, you know, why did you not renew your membership well?

(00:30:38) Because the AAO is letting GPS do orthodontic treatment or, or hasn't done enough in advocacy. And does anybody who's familiar with the regulatory space, there's. Almost, literally nothing that can be done there. I mean, there's no dental board in the country that's ever going to restrict the ability to provide orthodontic treatment like that.

(00:30:55) So it's obviously, it's a little unfortunate when somebody cancels their membership (00:31:00) over something that they think you should be doing that you just couldn't be doing. But what I do also tell orthodontists, anytime that I have this conversation with them, I push it back on them a little bit because certainly there are a lot of gps out there who are doing orthodontic treatment, orthodontic treatment.

(00:31:16) Attractive because the margins and all of that can be attractive as somebody who wants to get into that business. But at the end of the day, our members, our member orthodontist offered the Cadillac, the, the Lexus, the whatever brand you want, you all are the offered the top product in the market. You're the most qualified, you're the most skilled, you are the experts.

(00:31:40) And I can. Almost guarantee anytime if somebody goes to, uh, an orthodontist or a GP for orthodontic treatment, they're going to be thrilled with the treatment that they get from an orthodontist. So that's a great place to start from. I mean, that's a, that's a. Great position to be working from. I think the challenge just has to be that with that being the case, that our members can't (00:32:00) make orthodontic treatment so expensive or so inconvenient, that it almost forces somebody to consider a GP who's maybe offering to do it cheaper or is offering to do it.

(00:32:13) Uh, you know, oh, you only need to come into the office three times. That can all sound very tempting. And so obviously not that orthodontists need to match the price point necessarily of a gp, but it shouldn't just be, you know, I've got one, one number that I'm gonna charge every case no matter how simple or how expensive it is.

(00:32:31) Um, looking at things, incorporating remote monitoring and other things that can cut down on the number of office visits because if I, if I have two value propositions and one is a treatment by a GP and one's treatment by the true expert, and it's. Almost as inexpensive and almost as convenient as the treatment the GP offers.

(00:32:50) I think 98, 90 9% of patients are going to choose the orthodontist in those cases. So I don't wanna completely shirk responsibility here on this subject of (00:33:00) GPS doing orthodontic treatment, because that's why I just talked about everything I talked about with the consumer awareness program and what we're trying to do on the patient education side.

(00:33:08) But I also think. Just a, a little creativity, a a little better marketing, a little better pricing strategy, a little better. Remote monitoring utilization, some things like that that orthodontists could really make it to where it's a no-brainer when a patient looks at both options and chooses one. Yep.

(00:33:27) Amy Epstein: Affordability is another part of that equation too. It's not just the actual price point of the service, right? It's how you're working with the patient in order to make it fit into their budget. It's the Apple iPhone thing. Why did everyone carry it, even though it's like an 800 or a thousand dollars product because it's affordable.

(00:33:47) And so we, we also, we talk about that too, in addition to everything you're talking about when we work with our clients and, you know, make the down payment. Reasonable for them and, and stretch out the payments so that it fits into (00:34:00) their budget. And then again, it's comparing the, you know, apples to apples.

(00:34:05) If the ongoing investment, the monthly investment is comparable and reasonable, you're gonna choose the better. The better provider, the one who has all the experience and the expertise, and what you're buying is the peace of mind. That you're going to get the absolute best possible treatment for you or for your child especially.

(00:34:24) Um, 

(00:34:24) Dr. Leon Klempner: and, and one, you know, one of my frustrations when I talk to orthos is having them understand that. Our target audience has changed. We're dealing with digital natives. We need to adapt to that. And, and, you know, Amy and I have been talking about the digital office. Everything starts with a scan. Um, and then it'll either be, you know.

(00:34:45) Some sort of customized appliance, KLO, and thank you for sponsoring excellent option or some clear align of therapy. But these are the efficiencies that I believe will allow us to tap in to the (00:35:00) demand. We are, there's room for everybody here. You know, I'm not advocating that that GPS do ortho, but there's.

(00:35:07) Plenty of patients out there, you know, estimates of of close to 90 or a hundred million people that would like to get their teeth straight if it was affordable to do so. So there's opportunities to tap into a huge amount. We're treating maybe, I dunno what the date is that maybe 6 million or 7 million at, at most outta that group.

(00:35:29) So the future is. Great for those orthodontists that understand the marketplace, utilize the marketing, utilize the technology. So, you know, that's the frustration that I have, uh, when I talk toss. Mm-hmm. 

(00:35:44) Trey Lawrence: I, uh, I always, I always remember back finally the days when I used to get all the time as general counsel would always call the angry member calls about direct to consumer.

(00:35:54) And it was the, you know, the sky is falling and this is going to, you know, shut my practice (00:36:00) down, is taking food off my children's table, you know, all of those kind of gloom and doom scenarios. And I really tried to push back on the time, at the time and similar, similar kind of. Uh, speech to what I just gave here that, you know, I know, I think the quality of the product, the quality of the services that only the orthodontist can provide will eventually win out.

(00:36:19) And I think history has more or less proven me to be correct. Have been correct on that one. So I think similarly to your point, Dr. Klempner, it's a great time. I think it's not nearly as gloom and doom as some of those concerns that I hear from members. It just requires a little creativity. 

(00:36:35) Amy Epstein: Yeah.

(00:36:36) Absolutely. So before we let you go, um, we, you know, at the top of the show, right before we started, we talked a little bit about being in heavy AAO annual meeting prep. Uh, tell us a, like a couple highlights, things that we'll we'll see there and why, why members should come this year. 

(00:36:54) Trey Lawrence: So I'm hopeful that anybody who was in annual session last year came away saying, huh, that was a little different.

(00:36:59) It was a little more (00:37:00) fun. Yeah. A little more party, a little more, you know, pizazz than maybe some annual sessions in the past, and that was very intentional on our part. We recognized that just the member experience is such increasingly a reason why somebody goes to a conference like that. And so I am confident that Orlando is going to deliver even more of that.

(00:37:19) We have the. Universal Studios Park buyout. It would be only AAO attendees in the park for the evening. Uh, we have Joey Fatone and Lance Bass for those who fall on the right demographic there. They get thrilled about that. I know some of our older members say, who the heck is that? But there are lots of people that are very excited about that.

(00:37:37) We'll be part of our, I think we're gonna have. Follow our kind of late night with AAO talk show format that we utilized last year and was a lot of fun with Simone Biles. And, and then of course, I mean, all the givens that you get at any AO annual session, world class ce, um, the, the opportunity just to reconnect with your colleagues in the orthodontic community.

(00:37:58) But that fun (00:38:00) party piece of it, um, look for even more this year. 

(00:38:04) Amy Epstein: Sounds good. Well, we look forward to seeing you there. We appreciate your time very much, and, uh, looking forward to next time when we expand on the a, a o topic a little bit more. 

(00:38:15) Trey Lawrence: Yep. Absolutely. 

(00:38:16) Dr. Leon Klempner: A ai ai 

(00:38:19) Amy Epstein: we'd like to Yes. Thank you, Trey, for being here.

(00:38:22) Good to see you. 

(00:38:23) Trey Lawrence: Of course. Of course. 

(00:38:24) Amy Epstein: We'd like to thank KLON for their sponsorship of the Golden Age of Orthodontics. Without their support, we couldn't bring you the insights, strategies, and excellent guests that we have on the show. You can subscribe or download other episodes of the Golden Age of Orthodontics on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, SoundCloud, YouTube, if you wanna see us or wherever you get your podcasts, and if you enjoyed it, we'd appreciate it if you would tell a colleague.

(00:38:50) For more information about people in practice, you can visit our [email protected]. 

(00:38:57) Dr. Leon Klempner: Thank you for watching and listening. If you'd like to (00:39:00) contact me directly with any marketing questions or if you want to upgrade your website and marketing so that you're more AI prepared, reach out to me directly [email protected].

(00:39:13) Uh, and I wanna thank our sponsors, as Amy did, we couldn't do this. This is, as I mentioned in the opening seven years. Wanna thank KKL Owen for sponsoring this podcast and remember for forward thinking orthos. As Trey said, it's never been a better time to be an orthodontist. We are in the golden age. Take advantage of it.

(00:39:36) Till next time, see ya.

(00:39:45) Thank you for listening to the Golden Age of Orthodontics podcast. Subscribe to our podcast on YouTube, apple Podcast, Spotify. Or visit our (00:40:00) [email protected].